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Topic: Controlling cutoff and resonance with pitch + mod (Read 1375 times) |
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SveinT
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MIDI-OX Rules!
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Controlling cutoff and resonance with pitch + mod
« on: Jun 9th, 2003, 5:43pm » |
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Hi,
I'm totally new to this so please be easy on me 
This could very well be the wrong forum for this question for all I know, if so, sorry, but what I want to do is to control the resonance with my keyboards Modulator (the input i get is CC: Modulation), and the cutoff with the Pitch Bend. I guess most of know what effect i want to achieve, and just to let you know right away, my keybord don't have any of those controllers built in...
I have tried various methods involving Cubase 5 and whatnot, but I just can't get it working right. If you have a solution please explain quite thoroughfully as I don't know much about this...planning to learn though as it looks very interesting!
If Midi-OX cant do it (is there a thing it can't do?) and you know a solution that involves other programs please let me know anyways...
Thanks in advance
PS: I have an old Roland D-20 which I use for midi controller (  ), and I can't get it to transfer volume information...anyone has any idea about this? (I know it is a long shot  )
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| « Last Edit: Jun 9th, 2003, 5:44pm by SveinT » |
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Jamie OConnell
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Re: Controlling cutoff and resonance with pitch +
« Reply #1 on: Jun 9th, 2003, 10:31pm » |
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Mapping Modulation to resonance is a fairly simple operation with MIDI-OX. I have a Phatboy that uses a NRPN (161 dec.: MSB=1, LSB=33) to control Resonance. Is that the controller you had in mind? If so you can map it directly using MIDI-OX Data Mapping. You'd map from CC:1 to NRPN:161 :
Ch Message V1Min V1Max V2Min V2Max C|Ch Message V1Min V1Max V2Min V2Max
* Ctrl 1 1 0 127 | * NRPN 161 161 0 16383
NOTES: Although the range of the Modulation is 0 - 127, each NRPN has a range of 0 - 16383 (using both MSB and LSB of the Data Entry controller). The MIDI-OX mapping convention is to specify the entire range, even when you're only sending MSB of the Data Entry. After you turn the Map on and wiggle your Modulation Wheel you should get output like:
000BC777 A90 MU1 B0 63 01 1 --- CC: NRPN MSB
000BC777 A90 MU1 B0 62 21 1 --- CC: NRPN LSB
000BC777 A90 MU1 B0 06 14 1 --- CC: Data Entry MSB
000BC780 A90 MU1 B0 63 01 1 --- CC: NRPN MSB
000BC780 A90 MU1 B0 62 21 1 --- CC: NRPN LSB
000BC780 A90 MU1 B0 06 09 1 --- CC: Data Entry MSB
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| « Last Edit: Jun 9th, 2003, 10:33pm by Jamie OConnell » |
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Music is its own reward.
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SveinT
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Re: Controlling cutoff and resonance with pitch +
« Reply #2 on: Jun 10th, 2003, 8:02am » |
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No, I don't think that was exactly what I had in mind...
What I'm trying to do is controlling resonance and cutoff with the modulation wheel on my Roland D-20 keyboard. I came up with one solution yesterday, but I encountered one big problem which ruined the whole idea...Have a look:
8173 1 -- 238 56 48 15 --- Pitch Bend
8181 1 -- 238 61 59 15 --- Pitch Bend
8190 1 -- 238 0 64 15 --- Pitch Bend
Becomes:
8181 1 2 190 21 59 15 --- CC: 21 (E-MU)
8190 1 1 190 21 64 15 --- CC: 21 (E-MU)
8190 1 2 190 21 64 15 --- CC: 21 (E-MU)
I got this by mapping Ctrl 1 1 * * to Ctrl 22 22 * * , and
by mapping PitchB * * * * to Ctrl 21 21 * *.
The problem is the it's not applied to the current playing tone, so it only changes it for the next tones to be played. Thus I can't change the way a tone that is currently bein played sounds like....I hope you understand and thanks for your quick answer!
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Jamie OConnell
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Re: Controlling cutoff and resonance with pitch +
« Reply #3 on: Jun 10th, 2003, 11:19am » |
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From what you presented, I take it that your device does not use NRPNs to change Resonance and Cutoff, but instead uses CC:21 and CC:22? If so, that's actually easier to map, but you may have some trouble using the bend wheel as a source. This is because the bend wheel has 14 bit resolution (range: 0 - 16383). But if you just map the Pitchbend MSB, you can map it into a controller (sort of). In fact, your map for Pitch bend looks correct. Of course, the pitch bend center point will equal a controller value of 40 hex (64 dec.).
There isn't much that can be done about the target hardware not responding in real time to the change in controller value: that would be a hardware deficiency. What is the target device?
I used to have a D20 before it was stolen. As I recall, it can't issue Volume (CC:7) at all, although it will respond to it. The volume slider only affects the D20 internally.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 10th, 2003, 11:22am by Jamie OConnell » |
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SveinT
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Re: Controlling cutoff and resonance with pitch +
« Reply #4 on: Jun 10th, 2003, 1:49pm » |
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Thanks again for your reply, but as I said earlier I have no idea about this. I am using Soundfonts on a computer as target, and I dunno wether my mod wheel and pitch bend sends NRPN or not....I know that a computer can respond with those midi filters in realtime however (have tried with cakewalk).
No, my device doesn't use CC21 and CC22 as signal...what appear in MIDIOX is pitchbend (as source) and CC:1 Modulation. I mapped the pitch bend into CC21 because that's the controller for cutoff isnt it? And 22 for resonance? Thus i mapped the modulation to resonance...
So, Pitch Bend -> CC:21
CC:1 Modulation -> CC:22
Furthermore, I have tried realtime controls with cakewalk and those worked, supposedly another method involving Cubase also works but I couldn't get it to work. Please have a look at this page: http://www.tweakheadz.com/soundfont_knowledge_base.html
under "controlling filters in realtime". I don't know how to route my keyboard to control Cakewalk however, so im stuck there too..
You are right about the 40 hex part yes, it does give middle value (64), but isn't that the normal setting anyway? Otherwise I will issue that in other ways so it's not really a problem...
I would buy a better controller, but I find it a waste of money as the D-20 is doing it fine...maybe I will buy a MIDI foot controller so I can switch banks, control sounds and everything by my feet (nice while playing live )
Again, thanks a dozen for your help so far!
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SveinT
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Re: Controlling cutoff and resonance with pitch +
« Reply #5 on: Jun 10th, 2003, 3:55pm » |
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Ok, getting a bit further now...
I get cutoff to work by using NRPN data 16277 with the values from the pitch bend. This works in realtime, however I can't get the resonance to work (16278). I'm not 100% sure about the numbers as I have no idea about NRPN, but I got those numbers from the StudioWare file in Cakewalk. In Cakewalk it works like charm, so I don't know what I'm doing wrong. This is the settings for the sliders in cakewalk:
Kind: NRPN
Number 16277
COF=($2000 + CutoffFreq)
Kind: NRPN
Number 16278
FILRES=($2000 + FilterRes)
I dunno if those tell you anything...
Another thing I'm wondering about is that I'm trying to make the pitch wheel send a reset ctrl signal when at value 64 (in the middle position). I put pitch wheel 64 64 64 64 -> ctrl 121 121 0 0 . Shouldn't that work? (it doesn't now...). It works if I send the signal manually from the signal send panel (the leftmost icon in the longest row in midiOX). By sending the signal it resets the cutoff values so sound is good again...I realize I'm trying to do things a bit complicated, but at least I'm learning ;D
Well, thanks again for the help so far!
-edit-
Ok, got it working now...I'm extremely sorry for not paying more attention to your first reply, it's just that I don't think I completely understood what you meant. I do now however, and it seems like I had the wrong number if you look above in this post (16278 should've been 121). It works like a charm now, only the reset control thing left to figure out :)
Again, thanks a bunch!!
-2nd edit-
Ok, this is embarrasing...I thought it was working but it seems like it wasn't after all...weird, but I think my hearing is the thing to blame...sorry. Got any more suggestions? Where can I get a list over NRPN numbers and what they do btw?
Supposedly AWE cards use these values for NRPN:
127 21 0 127 Filter Cutoff
127 22 0 127 Filter Resonance
(http://www.webmassiva.com/developer/nrpn/awe.txt)
Using the NRPN calculator I get (MSB 127, LSB 21) 16277 and (MSB 127, LSB 21) 16278...it should work :\
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| « Last Edit: Jun 10th, 2003, 5:42pm by SveinT » |
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Jamie OConnell
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Re: Controlling cutoff and resonance with pitch +
« Reply #6 on: Jun 11th, 2003, 10:22am » |
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CC:21 and CC:22 are non-standard (officially they are 'undefined'). Emu uses these for their own purposes, but I don't know of any others.
NRPN stands for Non Registered Parameter Number. By their very nature, NRPNs are also manufacturer specific, and there is no standard master list. Each device can do whatever it wants with any NRPN.
It'd be nice if that reference text on the AWE site had some column labels. I don't have any specific information on AWE.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 11th, 2003, 10:26am by Jamie OConnell » |
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--Jamie
Music is its own reward.
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