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Topic: Cakewalk Sonar Pro 4 MIDI sync to Akai DPS16 (Read 874 times) |
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phillipthorne
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Cakewalk Sonar Pro 4 MIDI sync to Akai DPS16
« on: Dec 1st, 2004, 8:31pm » |
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Hi,
I'm trying to sync an Akai DPS16 DAW to Cakewalk Sonar 4PE but having no success. I can trigger the DPS to start in time with Sonar but after a couple of seconds there is a slow down in the DPS and then it runs in time once more, or appears to. This short slow down changes the pitch of the recording and only happens at the start. Also the DPS takes a second or so to stop after Sonar stops so the stop times are out of snyc as well. Each successive stop and start produces the same fault.
I have Sonar on my IBM A22p laptop and am using a MOTU micro lite USB MIDI interface to link the two systems and my Korg Triton. I've just downloaded MIDI-OX to see if I can track down the problem but, right now, I don't know what I'm looking for.
Any pointers would be much appreciated. The DPS16 only has a resolution of 96 on the BBC but Sonar is set to 192, the same as my Triton. I'm not sure if this makes a difference and have changed the Sonar settings to ensure BBC syncronisation but it makes no difference to the fault symptoms. Cakewalk and Akai support are silent on this matter and other forums have no ideas either. I'm hoping that MIDI-OX will be able to show me what's going on.
Many thanks
Kind regards
Phillip
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Jamie OConnell
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Re: Cakewalk Sonar Pro 4 MIDI sync to Akai DPS16
« Reply #1 on: Dec 3rd, 2004, 11:43am » |
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MIDI Sync (MIDI Clock) only works well with MIDI Data. If you have an audio project in SONAR, you will really need to use MTC Sync (MIDI Time Code) to stay in Sync. You need to set all clients to the same timebase resolution, and musical meter. For these reasons MTC is much preferred.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 3rd, 2004, 11:49am by Jamie OConnell » |
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--Jamie
Music is its own reward.
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phillipthorne
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Re: Cakewalk Sonar Pro 4 MIDI sync to Akai DPS16
« Reply #2 on: Dec 4th, 2004, 5:15pm » |
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Hi Jamie,
Thanks for your advice. I had tried the settings which you suggest and matched the MTC timebase resolution but I still get the same problem. I have to admit that I have tried a lot of combinations so I'm going to have to go back and double check what you've advised just to make absolutely certain.
Is there any way that I can get to understand what the DPS needs to receive and then see what's actually going out via the MIDI connection using MIDI-OX. The DPS doesn't respond to Sonar's reset to zero at all, only the Start an Stop commands and I'd like to sort that aspect out as well.
I appreciate your help on this matter
Kind regards
Phillip
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phillipthorne
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Re: Cakewalk Sonar Pro 4 MIDI sync to Akai DPS16
« Reply #3 on: Jan 11th, 2005, 5:57pm » |
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Hi,
I'm still trying to resolve this problem and have now begun to suspect the Akai DPS16 as being the actual problem. Whether it may be the OS software or hardware is not so clear. I have used MIDI-OX to send Midi TC and Clock directly to the Akai through a basic setup of an MPU-401 PC MIDI lead and the DPS still jumps at the start. There appears to be no 'sync' at all and the stop signal is not responded to for about a second. RTZ works fine as to as does setting the time to any other value via MIDI-OX instructions.
I would be grateful to know if there is any code, already written or that I could put together, that I can run from MIDI-OX that would be standard for triggering the transport of the DPS and also what it should sync to with the DPS being set to be MTC slave. In this way I could then determine if the DPS is at fault or not.
I have been in touch with Akai and had no help at all and am wondering what to do. I have done so much work on the DPS that I'm loath to part with it but if I can't get it to sync, either driving or being driven by, with my other equipment then I'll have to replace it if it's not going to work but firstly I would like to determine exactly what the problem is. 
Any help would be most appreciated as I'm fast running out of ideas. I have thought about buying a MOTU Midi Timepiece or something like this to generate MTC/Clock etc but there seems little point as MIDI-OX seems to do such a good job in producing the same signals and data but I'm not that familiar with MIDI to judge. My perspective at the moment is that if the DPS won't work properly in being driven by just MIDI-OX then it isn't going to work with anything else unless Timepiece type equipment can do other things with code conversion ??
Definitely in the dark here.
Kind regards
Phillip
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Jamie OConnell
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Re: Cakewalk Sonar Pro 4 MIDI sync to Akai DPS16
« Reply #4 on: Jan 11th, 2005, 8:00pm » |
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It occurs to me that you might get better sync if each piece was offset from the beginning. Set SMPTE on the SONAR ruler and Move the beginning of the whole song to say 00:00:05:00 (5 seconds, 0 frames). Do the same with the song in the DPS16. Now start the sync running at the beginning (00:00:00:00). The extra few seconds of Sync locking might give you the solid Sync you're looking for.
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--Jamie
Music is its own reward.
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b2001
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Re: Cakewalk Sonar Pro 4 MIDI sync to Akai DPS16
« Reply #5 on: Jan 13th, 2005, 10:06pm » |
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There's been a lot of discussion on sync issues like this over at the forum at vsplanet - and the usual solution seems to be a measure of silence at the beginning of the Cakewalk sequence - to give everything time to synce up.
Based on what I've read in the past, not sure you have an equipment problem - just seems to be the nature of the beast.
You might do a search over there ...
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phillipthorne
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Re: Cakewalk Sonar Pro 4 MIDI sync to Akai DPS16
« Reply #6 on: Jan 16th, 2005, 9:27pm » |
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Hi Jamie,
Thank you for your suggestions. It's one thing that I did try and had limited success with. The only way it works is to have Sonar 4 as the MTC slave where an offset of 3 secs is needed to allow sync. The DPS16 does not have the same facility to offset SMPTE/MTC. It does have a feature that allows the separation of relative and absolute time but this appears to be different in respect of MTC and not directly linked to it. I have yet to understand what it does exactly.
It seems that the only way that my setup will work is to have a bar of silence at the front end of everything I do which is going to be a pain. Triton, ES Rack, VSTs, Sonar - everything will have to be delayed just for the sake of a peculiarity in the DPS ( which otherwise is a wonderful machine which I love working with ).
I am still totally puzzled as why anything in the digital domain, which has no moving parts involving inertia, should need anything but microseconds to attain sync. I intend to find out.
I have to say that on the positive side it has made me investigate MIDI and sysex and the whole aspect of linking digital and analogue equipment together and in the process I've discovered MIDI-OX into the bargain so I'm more than happy about that. I intend to learn much more about your excellent program and what it can do and about MIDI Yoke which seems to have some interesting aspects to it.
My thanks also to b2001 for the information on the VS forum and for confirming my theory that it's not the DPS16 that's at fault.
Kind regards and best wishes
Phillip
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b2001
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Re: Cakewalk Sonar Pro 4 MIDI sync to Akai DPS16
« Reply #7 on: Jan 18th, 2005, 11:38am » |
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"I am still totally puzzled as why anything in the digital domain, which has no moving parts involving inertia, should need anything but microseconds to attain sync. I intend to find out."
I would agree that it doesn't make sense - I would be interested in what you might find out - I know there's a whole lot of other folks that would too...
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Jamie OConnell
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Re: Cakewalk Sonar Pro 4 MIDI sync to Akai DPS16
« Reply #8 on: Jan 19th, 2005, 7:59pm » |
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Although MTC messages encode the actual time of the piece and indication of frame rate: 24, 25, 30 and 30 drop, there is no requirement that it run at that actual speed. In fact, the common 29.97 frame rate (and 29.97 drop frame) are coded as if it is 30 (and 30 drop frame), but runs at 29.97 FPS. There is no way to encode 29.97 or any other rate than the 4 listed above. It is possible for a Transport to run at any arbitrary speed, or even backwards in time. For these reasons, a receiver must actually achieve actual Sync before running: it can't just believe what it reads.
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--Jamie
Music is its own reward.
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phillipthorne
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Re: Cakewalk Sonar Pro 4 MIDI sync to Akai DPS16
« Reply #9 on: Jan 26th, 2005, 1:46pm » |
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Hi Jamie,
Thanks for your reply and words of wisdom. I'm just beginning to grasp the differences between the various MIDI protocols and have understood the difference between MIDI Time Code and MIDI Clock now. I appreciate that MTC runs the 'transport', so to speak, and Clock relates to tempo. I'm not sure, however, if Clock includes Song Position Pointer or if that's a function of another sync mode and so I'm trying to sort out and research MMC and other sync issues at this time.
I've been round the net looking for some good information but all there seems to be is reams and reams on MIDI music and how notes are controlled and generated etc and how to hook up leads to ins and outs which is not what I'm looking for. In this respect, would you have any pointers please to either URLs or good books, or any source of material, which gives a good clear and concise explanation of how MIDI works in linking and controlling various bits of equipment.
Very much appreciated
Kind regards
Phillip
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Jamie OConnell
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Re: Cakewalk Sonar Pro 4 MIDI sync to Akai DPS16
« Reply #10 on: Feb 6th, 2005, 9:14pm » |
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MIDI Clock Sync may be accompanied by Song Position Pointer, and usually is, but there is no requirement that it is. SPP is a different message from MIDI Clock, as is Start, Stop and Continue. I have learned most of what I know by experimenting and looking at what devices such as Drum machines emit. It's important to have a copy of the MIDI spec. too. It's not very long, but pretty succinct.
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--Jamie
Music is its own reward.
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