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   How do I make Ableton register cymbal chokes?
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   Author  Topic: How do I make Ableton register cymbal chokes?  (Read 151 times)
DerTrommler
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How do I make Ableton register cymbal chokes?
« on: Oct 27th, 2020, 4:46pm »
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How do I make Ableton register cymbal chokes from my Roland TD-17 drum module?
 
Also I am using EZdrummer 2 as a plugin in Ableton and would love to play to some backing tracks or lay some drums to some of my own songs, but as the aforementioned cymbal choking isn't registering, it's kinda annoying.
 
I already followed one thread from this website ( http://www.midiox.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Mapping;action=display; num=1531593959 ), but it still isn't registering them, even though I followed all the instructions on that thread all the way through.  
 
As far as I know the cymbal choke is a polyphonic aftertouch signal, but I can't be too sure on that, since I'm still a beginner to this stuff.  
 
I also had to use loopMIDI, since MidiYoke wasn't showing up. Probably because my system is 64-bit.
« Last Edit: Oct 27th, 2020, 4:47pm by DerTrommler » IP Logged
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Re: How do I make Ableton register cymbal chokes?
« Reply #1 on: Oct 28th, 2020, 10:20pm »
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Hi
So Polyphonic Aftertouch is normally a continuous message stream, but you are only interested in values of 0 and 7F (127 in decimal) according to the manual.
Lets stick with hexadecimal for our values - let me know if this awkward for you.
Right Click the MidiOx input window. If half way down the list it has 'Display Decimal' click on it to make it say 'Display Hex'
 
The Poly Aftertouch (PAT, but MidiOx calls it Key Aftertouch which use to be more common) message format is
Ax Key Value
Ax where x is the channel  0 to F (1 to 16) so A0 to AF
We need to find out the Key value that Roland uses (0 to 7F)
 
Play the choke on the T-17 and see what the key number is
eg
A0 60 7F
 
The 60 would be the Key you are interested in.
Set up a Data Map that changes from A0 64 value to a CC (Continuous controller) message with a type = 60 (could be any unused CC type)
A0 60 00 -> B0 60 00
A0 60 7F -> B0 60 7F
 
'Clear' then 'Insert'
So A0 60 val  INPUT
Channel : 1, Event type : KeyAft, Note#: Min=60 Max=60, Presure : Min =-1 Max =-1 (-1 means 'any value')
CC message B0 60 val OUTPUT
Channel : 1, Event type : Ctrl, Ctrl#: Min=60 Max=60, Amount : Min =-1 Max =-1 (-1 means 'any value')
 
Save it as 'PAT_CC.oxm'
 
You need another map to change it back when you are playing the clip.
 
B0 60 00 -> A0 60 00  
B0 60 7F -> A0 60 7F  
 
'Clear' then 'Insert'
 
CC message B0 60 val INPUT
Channel : 1, Event type : Ctrl, Ctrl#: Min=60 Max=60, Amount : Min =-1 Max =-1 (-1 means 'any value')
So A0 60 val  OUTPUT
Channel : 1, Event type : KeyAft, Note#: Min=60 Max=60, Presure : Min =-1 Max =-1 (-1 means 'any value')
 
Save it as 'CC_PAT.oxm'
 
Now you need to bring in the Midi from your TD-17 and connect it to a MidiYoke 1 (or LoopMidi) output and in Live connect MidiYoke1 as an input
 
TD-17 -> MidiOx -> MidiYoke1 in the Routing window.
Click on the square box in the middle of the connecting line and on the new dialog Select the Map File called PAT_CC.oxm
Now when you use the HH choke the Midi data coming in from the TD-17 should be changed and go to MidiYoke1
TD-17   ->   MidiYoke1
A0 60 00 -> B0 60 00
A0 60 7F -> B0 60 7F
 
If you select MidiYoke1 to record into the Clip the Choke will be recorded as CC 60 xx
Now back the other way. Select MidiYoke2 as the clip's output in Abelton
 
Now the reverse connection  
MidiYoke2 -> MidiOx -> TD-17 in the Routing window.
Click on the square box in the middle of the connecting line and on the new dialog Select the Map File called CC_PAT.oxm
Now when Live sends the CC it will be converted to PAT for the HH choke  
MidiYoke2   ->   TD-17
B0 60 00 -> A0 60 00  
B0 60 7F -> A0 60 7F  
 
Looks a bit complicated, but the two maps are nearly identical
 
Let me know how you get on
 
Royce
 
 
 
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Re: How do I make Ableton register cymbal chokes?
« Reply #2 on: Oct 29th, 2020, 11:48am »
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It seems to not have worked, because I must have messed something up.
 
Following your example, I put the 60's as 31's, but should I have put them as 37's?
 
Also for your information, when I clutch the cymbal it says:  
1 A9 31 7F 10 C# 3 Key Aftertouch
1 A9 37 7F 10 G 3 Key Aftertouch
2 A9 31 7F 10 C# 3 Key Aftertouch
2 A9 37 7F 10 G 3 Key Aftertouch
 
And when I release the cymbal it says:
1 A9 31 00 10 C# 3 Key Aftertouch
2 A9 31 00 10 C# 3 Key Aftertouch
1 A9 37 00 10 G 3 Key Aftertouch
2 A9 37 00 10 G 3 Key Aftertouch
 
Thanks for the reply and the help!  
 
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Re: How do I make Ableton register cymbal chokes?
« Reply #3 on: Oct 29th, 2020, 8:16pm »
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First your data....
 
Also for your information, when I clutch the cymbal it says:  
1 A9 31 7F 10 C# 3 Key Aftertouch
1 A9 37 7F 10 G 3 Key Aftertouch
2 A9 31 7F 10 C# 3 Key Aftertouch
2 A9 37 7F 10 G 3 Key Aftertouch
 
And when I release the cymbal it says:
1 A9 31 00 10 C# 3 Key Aftertouch
2 A9 31 00 10 C# 3 Key Aftertouch
1 A9 37 00 10 G 3 Key Aftertouch
2 A9 37 00 10 G 3 Key Aftertouch
"
Looks like you are getting data coming in on two Midi ports 1 and 2
Also there are two Keys being sent 31 and 37. I would only expect to see one key.
The Midi is on channel 10 (I should have guessed as that it the Roland preferred drum channel)
 
To find out what is the choke, I would go to where you edit the Midi Notes.
Here is a URL I found to get you there.
https://rolandus.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360005172651-TD-17-Assign ing-MIDI-Notes-to-Pads-
 
So try each of the key values (make 4 oxm files) and load them in pairs to the Routing boxes.
 
Let me know how you get on.
Royce
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Re: How do I make Ableton register cymbal chokes?
« Reply #4 on: Oct 30th, 2020, 7:59am »
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I have two crashes and their values are:
 
For crash 1:  
Bow: 49 C#3
Edge: 55 G 3
 
Crash 2:  
Bow: 57 A 3
Edge: 52 E 3
 
The ride is also chokeable and its values are:
Bow: 51 D#3
Edge: 59 B 3
Bell: 53 F 3
 
Thanks for the reply!
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Re: How do I make Ableton register cymbal chokes?
« Reply #5 on: Nov 1st, 2020, 8:40pm »
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For crash 1:  
Bow: 49 C#3
Edge: 55 G 3
 
Crash 2:  
Bow: 57 A 3
Edge: 52 E 3
 
The ride is also chokeable and its values are:
Bow: 51 D#3
Edge: 59 B 3
Bell: 53 F 3  
 
So Key 49, 51,52,53, 55, 57, 59
 
The easiest way is to include Key 50,54,56,58 although you don't mention those key values
I should have thought this through. I think Note On should work for a VST.
 
eg Ride Bell: 53 F 3  
KeyAT 53 7F => NoteOn 53 7F (velocity max)
KeyAT 53 00 => NoteOn 53 00 (=NoteOff)
 
Just one line for the Send to Live  
 
KeyAT to NoteOn message all channel 10 full range 0 to 127
Channel : 10, Event type : KeyAft, Note#: Min=49 Max=59, Presure : Min =-1 Max =-1 (-1 means 'any value')
Channel : 10, Event type : NoteOn, Notel#: Min=49 Max=59, Velocity : Min =-1 Max =-1 (-1 means 'any value' )
 
(In fact just in case you have missed other keys...
KeyAT to NoteOn message all channel 10 full range 0 to 127
Channel : 10, Event type : KeyAft, Note#: Min=-1 Max=-1, Presure : Min =-1 Max =-1 (-1 means 'any value')
Channel : 10, Event type : NoteOn, Notel#: Min=-1 Max=-1, Velocity : Min =-1 Max =-1 (-1 means 'any value' )
Convert them all - if this causes problems step back to the one above. Still problems create seperate linesjust for Key 49, (51,52,53), 55, 57, 59
)
 
KeyAT 10 Key Val => NoteOn 10 Key Velocity  
KeyAt10 goes to NoteOn10, Key goes to Key and Pressure goes to Velocity
Save this as TDToLive.oxm
 
This should play the plugin, but you will need to...
Create another Data Map that reverses NoteOn to KeyAT and Live playback should play the TD-17.
Save this as LiveToTD.oxm
 
All the best
Royce
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Re: How do I make Ableton register cymbal chokes?
« Reply #6 on: Nov 3rd, 2020, 11:24am »
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Hey Royce!
 
I did as instructed and it is now registering the choke, but as another normal, but louder cymbal hit.
 
Any clue why?
 
Thanks for the help!
« Last Edit: Nov 3rd, 2020, 11:28am by DerTrommler » IP Logged
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Re: How do I make Ableton register cymbal chokes?
« Reply #7 on: Nov 3rd, 2020, 6:26pm »
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I might need a bit more information.
 
If you are talking about the VST then you need to look at the VST's note number for the correct note for the VST choke and put that in the data map.
If you are talking about the sending it to LIVE and then returning the Midi to the TD-17, use MidiOx to check that the returning PolyAt key number is the same as what you sent.
If it isn't check your data maps (oxm files)
 
Royce
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Re: How do I make Ableton register cymbal chokes?
« Reply #8 on: Nov 5th, 2020, 6:25am »
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Ahh yes. I was thinking about adding them to the reply, but I was in a bit of a hurry.
 
I'm just gonna give every cymbal's notes from EZD2, since I might add some pads and cymbals to the kit.
 
Cymbal 1:
Crash: G2
Mute: G#2
 
Cymbal 2:
Crash: C#2
Mute: D2
 
Cymbal 3:
Crash: A2
Mute: A#2
 
Ride:
Bow: D#2
Bell: F2
Edge B2
Mute: B4
 
Cymbal 4:
Crash: E2
Mute: F#2
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Re: How do I make Ableton register cymbal chokes?
« Reply #9 on: Nov 5th, 2020, 7:46pm »
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Here is a Note to Midi Number table.
Unfortunately the octave number has been and still is in some dispute.
Some say Middle C is C3, but I always use C4 = 60 like this table.
So if the numbers don't work it is likely you are an octave too high.
 
All the best
Royce
 
 
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