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   Author  Topic: Midi-ox doesn't record, what will? But...  (Read 409 times)
DanBangkok
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Midi-ox doesn't record, what will? But...
« on: Aug 15th, 2023, 1:09pm »
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I need more sophisticated midi recording and editing software that SPECIFICALLY can record complex program changes.  
 
Issue: I'm recording an Allen digital organ that has midi in and out capabilities but no installed sequencer (not worth buying, either). The simple software midi recorder I tried records notes and durations fine. However, any program changes (no matter how different they are) all show up as the same program change, "99, Non-Registered Parameter Number (MSB)" And when the file plays back, the notes play correctly, pitch and duration, but no program changes occur.  
 
Explanation: In its simplest iteration, a church organ has three input/output channels (pedal keyboard (ch. 3) plus 2 other separate hand keyboards (ch. 1 & 2))
 
I need a midi recorder that will notice and record:  
1. Which of those three keyboards a note is being played on (channel 1, 2, or 3)
2. And different program changes for each of these channels that record:  
     a. which stop sound is selected on/off (i.e. "trumpet")
     b. if a volume pedal is increased or decreased (not the same as velocity because velocity doesn't affect an organ note)
     3. when another channel/keyboard is coupled to the currently recorded channel/keyboard
     4. if the organ's crescendo pedal is increased or decreased
 
I hope my needs are clear here. So this organ needs at least 55 DIFFERENT kinds of program changes to operate beyond just playing notes correctly.
 
My assumption (correct me if I'm wrong) is if I create a blank midi file, start recording, and then systematically operate every switch/piston/stop sound on the organ, on/off, and moving swell/crescendo pedals etc., I'll be able to see in the saved file what program change did what so that I can use them in the future intentionally. If so, what midi recorder will "catch" all those different program changes?
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Re: Midi-ox doesn't record, what will? But...
« Reply #1 on: Aug 15th, 2023, 8:31pm »
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Hi Dan
 
Most sequencers will do what you need but they are filled with so much more that you don't (yet) need.
I have had this problem with my brother (also an organist).
All he really wanted was a tape recorder for Midi (yes 'tape' we are both that old).
Just Record and play back.
But as soon as he sorted this out he could the possibilities and he wanted to do overdubs (extra track syncronised to the original) etc
 
So what is needed is something that will get the first job (recording and playback) done easily and obviously, then expand when you are feeling adventitious.
Sadly this is a tall order because most people don't want this and prefer the 'multitrack' studio way of working
So that is the workflow of most current sequencers.
 
As well, you need the sequencer to be able to record more that one midi track at a time.
Most software sequencers can do that, but I'm not sure about hardware ones.
 
Don't forget you will need a Midi Interface.  
Don't buy a very cheap ebay one.  
Buy one with a good name Roland, Yamaha, Korg, Midisport  M-Audio, Behringer, Focusrite
 
I think that whatever sequencer you choose, you will need to start out by setting up a template in the sequencer that has 3 Midi tracks.
On each track set to output channel to 1,2 or 3 and the record / input channel to match.
Save that as your default template.
 
Once you're done sorting out how to do that every new project will be ready to go.
Set all channels to record,  press RECORD and start playing.
 
1. 'Notice and record' I guess you mean that it should start recording when you start playing?
This is common on audio recording hardware, but as I don't work this way I haven't looked for this.  
I have a remote control that sends Midi START, STOP and CONTINUE if I am too far from the PC.
Many people use a laptop PC next to them.  
Most PC Keyboards are wireless anyway. Perhaps you could find a small keyboard that will fit somewhere on the organ.
 
2. Recording PC (patch change) and CC (Control change) is pretty much mandatory these days for any sequencer.
CC7 is volume and that is what my Yamaha Electones put out.
The question is 'what channel does the PC message from the organ send out and what is the CC message channel for the volume?'
 
Use MidiOx to see if they are different from 1,2,and 3.
If they are, you will have to add extra tracks set to those channels to record them (add these to your template).
This also goes for the extra keyboard. Once you are setup for the organ, set the connecting keyboard to a different channel not used by the organ and add an extra track to your template set to this channel.
 
Basic Midi has key/note, PC and CC  range of  0 to 127. So many more than you need.
 
So in addition to recording everything all at once, you can 'repair' a mistake by  
PC editing or  
re-recording just the faulty part - some tricky pedaling perhaps  
   turn recording off for all tracks then select recording just for the pedal part
   press RECORD and the other parts will play while you record a new pedal attempt.
 
A sequencer is really a musical instrument and you should approach it like you are learning a new instrument.
 Frustration is inevitable and the cure is patience, curiosity and time
 
Do an internet search for 'Free Simple Midi sequencers'
I would avoid the online ones as I feel that learning how to use a particular sequence takes time and it really should be sitting on your PC.  
Having to be connected to the internet and the possibility of the site disappearing at any time and loosing all that time learning makes it a 'no-go' for me.
 
I use Reaper - the trial version is free and the trial time never expires BUT it is a fully blown professional sequencer that has LOTS of stuff you will never use.
 
I would suggest you download some free or free trial sequencers, but remember each one will take time to learn.
 
Feel free to post any other questions.
 
All the best
Royce
« Last Edit: Aug 15th, 2023, 8:47pm by Breath » IP Logged
DanBangkok
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Re: Midi-ox doesn't record, what will? But...
« Reply #2 on: Aug 15th, 2023, 9:04pm »
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Thanks for the details, Royce. I will check out Reaper per your suggestion.  
 
However, I feel like I'm SO CLOSE to solving this, because not only can I create perfect midi files using Finale (don't even need to manually record them first), but I can play them from Midi-ox or Finale. Change keyboards, do pedal solos, slow down, speed up, no problem. Sounds great. BUT I HAVE TO MANUALLY: 1. change sounds by either moving a stop tab or pushing a piston as the piece plays, and 2. move a crescendo or volume pedal. I sit on the bench while the midi file plays the correct notes with the correct timing, while I only "play" the sound changes and the volume/crescendo pedals. The result is perfect and exactly how I want it.  
 
But I want to AUTOMATE the sound and volume changes. I heard there are two ways to do this:  
1. Open a midi file and manually embed a patch or program change at a certain location in the file that causes the organ to subtract or add a sound, or whatever.  
2. Or play the piece just as I did above BUT RECORD AT THE SAME TIME and the midi file overdubs/adds my sound changes or volume pedal movements to the current midi file, which I can then save as a new one.  
 
So I feel I'm almost there. I already have the "tape recording" I want. But just need to insert/add sound and volume changes into it. The concept doesn't sound complicated to me, but maybe it is. We'll see!  
 
By the way, I do think I need to learn the language the organ expects. Does it want a patch change or a program change? Then what exact number causes "sound x" to turn on or off? They are not general midi sounds. They are a rocker tab that is named "Subbass" or "Hautboy" or "Salicional" or something strange to non-organist. But the name doesn't matter. What's important is, "What signal/command causes that particular tab to turn on or off and how is the command delivered?" That's the mystery I need solving.
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Re: Midi-ox doesn't record, what will? But...
« Reply #3 on: Aug 18th, 2023, 3:21am »
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Hi Dan
 
I think you should probably stick to what you know with Finale, until you really need to expand (Reaper can be complicated).
It sounds like it should do most of what you are needing now.
 
The term 'patch'  commonly is  the wiring up a set of sound modules - the wire connections being  patch chords - as in telephone patch chords at an exchange or switchboard.
I would say that using the term 'patch' shows you how old you are but for the resurgence of modular synth systems.
Luckily in MIDI it is more often just a 'PC' message and so suits either term.
 
From my very limited organ education, electronic organs easily combine a selection of stops into a 'registration' along with level settings for each of the manuals.
Sometimes the selection of the registration is a series of buttons between the keyboards so you can lower your thumb to reach it (they are on the left side on my simple Electone).
 
Usually Midi PC is used on organs for Registration change not individual stops.
 
Opening or closing a Stop is like changing a parameter on a synthesiser. These are the components of the program / patch / preset (now there are three terms all the same)
 
I don't have any Allen manuals, but if they allow registration /patch / program/ preset (now there are four just for organists) editing via Midi then it is usually done with a thing called System Exclusive messages.
System Exclusive messages allow any manufacturer to design Midi messages that are specific to their instruments and are often different for each model they make.
 
Let me know the model of the organ and if the manual with the Midi specification (usually at the back of the book) is available online and we can solve the problem together.
 
All the best
Royce
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