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osz
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get SysEx message from software to MIDI device
« on: Jan 6th, 2020, 9:07am »
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Hello there - hope you can help with some trouble I have ...
 
I've got a MIDI controller that can send its status to the delivered software, means which are the positions of potentiometers and sliders. The software triggers the controller by asking using a (possibly) 14 byte SysEx message and the controller returns its actual status.
 
I have got MIDI-OX and MIDI Yoke installed and can read all the MIDI signals coming from the controller. Anyhow I can not see the SysEx message that the software sends to the controller - only the controllers reply. Any idea how I can make visible what SysEx the software sends to the controller?
 
Thanks a lot!
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Re: get SysEx message from software to MIDI device
« Reply #1 on: Jan 6th, 2020, 7:31pm »
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Hi
if it is a Behringer BCR(F)2000 then you can get all this info and more from Mark's BCL guide from https://mountainutilities.eu/bc2000
The sysex message is Section 6 on page 9 (in Hex) F0 00 20 32 7F 7F 43 F7 should do it for you.
 
If it isn't, you need to install MidiYoke or loopMidi (Midi virtual drivers - they look like hardware drivers but they are just software Midi cables - the 'in' is connected to 'out')  
MidiYoke1 = loopMidi
 
Make the new MidiYoke1 Ins and Outs available to MidiOx Options/Midi Devices..
 
Connect the program's Midi output to MidiYoke1  
 
In MidiOx on the Midi Port Routing window connect the MidiYoke1 input (Left side) to the Controllers Midi Out (right)
Click on SYX in the bottom right statusbar of MidiOx.  
If is already highlighted, click it twice as you need to re-enable it after any routing change in the Midi Port window
 
Now the programs output to the controller should be visible in the input window.
 
All the best
Royce
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osz
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Re: get SysEx message from software to MIDI device
« Reply #2 on: Jan 7th, 2020, 12:56am »
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Thank you so much for the quick reply, Breath.
No its not a Behringer... Do I understand correctly that I have to do following chain ?
 
SW sending SysEx -> MIDI Yoke IN -> MIDI Yoke OUT -> Hardware?  
 
In this case I would select the MIDIYoke as MIDI device in Software but it is not visible. The software only shows my Hardware device, nothing else. So I cannot route the signal through MIDIYoke/MIDI-OX.
 
Did I have wrong understanding or can I otherwise spy the SysEx message ?
 
PS: Thanks for the hint using loopMIDI, which shows up as a device in my SW but still I dont get it to show me the SysEx - would still need your help please to connect in the right way.  
« Last Edit: Jan 7th, 2020, 1:19am by osz » IP Logged
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Re: get SysEx message from software to MIDI device
« Reply #3 on: Jan 7th, 2020, 7:28pm »
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"SW sending SysEx -> MIDI Yoke IN -> MIDI Yoke OUT -> Hardware?"  
Nearly there.. SW sending SysEx -> MIDI Yoke IN -> MidiOx ->MIDI Yoke OUT -> Hardware
On MidiOx's Routing page the SW sysex comes in the Midi Yoke IN and is displayed before being sent on to the hardware.
 
"In this case I would select the MIDIYoke as MIDI device in Software but it is not visible."
MidiYoke is a separate bit of software and needs to be downloaded and installed before it can be used.
After the install (and possible reboot)  it should e visible when you restart your SW.
 
"Did I have wrong understanding or can I otherwise spy the SysEx message ?"  
No, I don't think so. You look to be nearly there.
 
"PS: Thanks for the hint using loopMIDI, which shows up as a device in my SW but still I dont get it to show me the SysEx - would still need your help please to connect in the right way. "
 
Looks like you have already installed loopMidi for some other reason, so there is no real need to install MidiYoke.
 
SW sending SysEx -> loopMidi IN -> MidiOx -> loopMidi OUT -> Hardware
 
If you can't see loopMidi in MidiOx, go to Options/Midi Devices.. and add it to your selection lists for Midi In and Out  
 
Post again if you still have any trouble.
 
All the best
Royce
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osz
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Re: get SysEx message from software to MIDI device
« Reply #4 on: Jan 8th, 2020, 6:26am »
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Thank you very much for confirming. Then I think that it is not possible to do what I want to do except you have got any other idea....
 
Gonna be more specific now: I am using MIXXX DJ Software on Linux and just bought a Denon MC7000 controller which was not (yet) supported by MIXXX. I already made a mapping for it using XML and JavaScript code to make this controller working. Now, MIXXX always starts with all faders and knobs at Zero position because it does not recognise where the hardware really is.
 
The delivered Software for the controller (lets call it App) always sends a SysEx message to a supported device which is controller specific in order to adjust the App faders and knobs to the real hardware position at startup.
 
I wanna do exactly this for my new MC7000 in MIXXX but first lets go for a device that already is known... Luckily I have got a Denon MC4000 too for which someone already found the code sniffing the original App with Snoize Midi Monitor spy function. The piece of script for the MC4000 looks like:
 
     var byteArray = [ 0xF0, 0x00, 0x02, 0x0B, 0x7F, 0x01, 0x60, 0x00, 0x04, 0x04, 0x01, 0x00, 0x00, 0xF7 ];
    midi.sendSysexMsg(byteArray,byteArray.length);
 
when I send this SysEx with MIDI-OX to the MC4000 then I get all reply from the controller listed in MIDI-OX. So far so good.
 
If I use the original App then I see the MC4000 and the loopMidi virtual device as MIDI devices in the App settings menu. Both seams to be active. No chance to select only one.
 
When I start the App connected to MIDI-OX the I do not see any SysEx message only the answer from the MC4000 which is exactly the same as the one above.  
 
My guess is that the App sends the SysEx question only to the controller but not to the loopMidi device. I would need a parallel sniffing instead of a serial chain like:
 
App ---------> MC4000
        |
         ---> MIDI-OX (through loopMidi or whatever needed)

 
to really understand what the App sends to the controller.
 
When I understood this for the known MC4000 then I would like to get the real message from my MC7000
 
Unfortunately I do not own a Mac otherwise I could just use Midi Monitor so I installed Win in a VirtualBox to get that task done. As Midi Monitor is OpenSource then possibly some code could be used to append the MIDI-OX functionality.
 
Hope there is still a possibility.
Thanks a lot for your support.  
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Re: get SysEx message from software to MIDI device
« Reply #5 on: Jan 8th, 2020, 9:32pm »
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It looks like the App seeks out a Midi Device it knows the name of, in this case the "Dennon MC4000", and It sends it out to that.
 
Check if it will search for the controller by looking at all the Midi devices available (including loopMidi) when it can't find something it knows.
 
Disconnect the MC4000 leaving only the loopMidi driver available.
Start MidiOx first then the App and see if it sends any sysex asking 'who's out there'
 
The App may only send sysex if it sees the name of a driver it knows.
 
You might be able to fool it by writing down the name of the Dennon driver exactly.  
Then disconnect the MC4000. The driver should go away from the list of available devices.
Kill the App and MidiOx.
 
You can then add another loopMidi device and give it the EXACT  Dennon name.
 
Start MidiOx and go to Options Midi Devices and select the In and Out of the fake Dennon driver (it's really loopMidi).
It could already be selected in MidiOx because MidiOx works by device name as well.
Really there should only be one Dennon named driver visible because you have disconnected the controller and you should connect to that In and Out.
 
Start the App and see if it sends anything to the fake Dennon driver.
 
Don't forget to kiil the fake Dennon driver before you connect the MC4000.
 
Let me know how you get on.
 
All the best
Royce
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Re: get SysEx message from software to MIDI device
« Reply #6 on: Jan 9th, 2020, 5:08am »
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Thank you so much for keeping me supported - I was quite enthusiastic when reading your message as it sounded so obvious but still it did not work.
 
I have linked here to a screen shot...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r83hrf0na413mqv/SysEx.png?dl=0
 
It looks like the App does not recognise any MIDI device once the controller is disconnected. When the hardware is connected then all virtual devices are found as well. I believe the App is looking for a HW driver to be loaded and if so sends a message to the device for that loaded driver. If no known driver is loaded then the App possibly "believes" there is no device. In the Win Devices Manager all virtual devices are Software virtuals but the Hardware (MC4000) is a HW Video - Audio device.
 
I tried to start the App with connected and disconnected controller to find that out but also tried to start with connected and during App start switch off the controller. Then it was giving me a warning that no driver was found.
 
So another rock to push. Any idea ?
 
Thanks a lot
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Re: get SysEx message from software to MIDI device
« Reply #7 on: Jan 9th, 2020, 9:21pm »
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So the Denon doesn't have hardware Midi ports so you can't put a device in between the MC7000 and the software
It only locks to the Denon Midi driver ....
- you say you are using Linux - so is it an OSS driver or are you working inside Wine?  
 
Goto Options / General.. and turn on the Display Port name abbr so you can see what port the data is coming in rather than a device number.
 
So connect the MC, restartr MidiOx and get the names again...
 
To get the real driver names - I think I screwed up suggesting Options / Midi Devices... sorry
 
To check the real names goto Options / Customize Port Names - the names on the right are the ones you need to use.
Unfortunately you can't cut to  paste here.
 
In the Output window right click and "Clear" then right click and select "Device".
The correct device names will be written to the window.  
If you use name abbreviation in MidiOx, the correct name is between square brackets
Use the strange - right click "Mark for clipboard" then left drag, then right click "Copy to clipboard" and  
paste into the loopMidi add box with no 'extra' square brackets but with spaces.  
I have seen drivers with spaces at the end so be careful to get it all.
 
If there is a different name for the input and output port eg "MC4000 In" and "MC4000 Out" create two loopMidi ports.
In fact, do that anyway even if they have the same name as the App will be looking for both.
 
Midi drivers also have other details that the App could call up to verify that it is a Denon driver.  
If that is what it does then there is a lot more work if you have to hack that.
 
How about writing to Denon for the sysex specification?
Find out who does the servicing for the devices and ask them for the sysex details.
 
Let me know how you get on
 
All the best
Royce
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Re: get SysEx message from software to MIDI device
« Reply #8 on: Jan 10th, 2020, 3:38am »
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Regarding my test environment - as I wrote before I use a complete Win10 installation inside VirtualBox 6.1. All running on top of an Ubuntu System.  
 
I tried what you suggested: Here the Monitor - Output for the device:

 DEVICE INFORMATION
 IN:   9) MC4000
 OUT: 10) MC4000

No square brackets but I suggest "MC4000" is the name for in and out ... and that is what I tried already in different ways using loopMIDI
 
with loopMIDI I cannot add the device name twice as it gives an error message that the device already exists. It also deletes added spaces.
 
So I tried to "Customize Port Names" with MIDI Yoke using following names for in and outs
 
MC4000
MC4000_
_MC4000
_MC4000_
 
replace the "_" with spaces
 
No luck either.
 
Your suggestion about writing to Denon: I did a few times without any response but a questionnaire a few days later of how useful the support was Wink guess my answers....
 
I wrote to the software manufacturer and got the reply that the SysEx message is internal business and will not be made available.
 
That was all the reason I try now with MIDI-OX almost giving up though, except you get any other idea I could try.
 
Thanks a lot anyway for your great guidance! I much appreciate that.
 
EDIT: I just looked to find macOS drivers but there are non existing, so the App runs on Mac without looking for a HW driver. I get completely clueless now.
« Last Edit: Jan 10th, 2020, 3:54am by osz » IP Logged
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Re: get SysEx message from software to MIDI device
« Reply #9 on: Jan 10th, 2020, 6:52pm »
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I'm sorry you are striking out here.
I have no idea why manufactures want to hide this stuff.  
When we hacked though all the Behringer BC2000 (BCR and BCF) we found a device that could do at least 10 times as much as Behringer said it could.
We published our findings and Mark wrote an editor to access the extra features. What a great machine, but you wouldn't know it from what Behringer published.
Behringer made these devices till just last year - 2005 to 2019 !  
Who gets a hi-tech selling window of 15 years (R&D wold have been paid in less than 12months)? I am sure we had a lot to do with its long life.
 
Dumb business model from Denon if you ask me.  
Perhaps let Facebook know your displeasure.
 
Your next moves are a lot harder.
 
The only other thing I can think of is a USB sniffer or decompile the application.  
A bit extreme and heading in the general direction of Dark Side  (but very interesting).
 
If you want to try the Mac ...
"Open up Finder and click on “Applications.”
Search for “Audio MIDI Setup” – you should see a little keyboard icon show up. Double click on it.
If you are lucky, you will get 2-3 windows that open up and one of them will be called “MIDI Studio.” If you don’t see that window, go up to the top left of the screen and go to  
'Audio MIDI Setup > Preferences and make sure the box called “MIDI Window” is ticked.'
 
You might have to click the "Window" menu option to find Midi Studio
 
'Once you have MIDI Studio open, double-click on “IAC Driver.”
There should be a list called “Ports.” If this is empty, you don’t have any ports set up.  
To add a new port, click the “+” button.  
This port will now always be there (potentially unless you upgrade your OS version – then you might need to go through these steps again)."  
from http://www.donyaquick.com/working-with-midi-on-mac-os-x/
 
This is like a loopMidi port
You can rename the Device so this might be worth a try.
 
Sorry I can't be of more help.
If I think of something I'll let you know
 
All the best
Royce
« Last Edit: Jan 10th, 2020, 9:10pm by Breath » IP Logged
osz
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Re: get SysEx message from software to MIDI device
« Reply #10 on: Jan 11th, 2020, 7:55am »
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I now have to try with analyzing the USB traffic but it is a lot of data.  
Thank you so much anyway! And yes - if sth comes to your mind I appreciate to let me know.
Cheers! OsZ
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Re: get SysEx message from software to MIDI device
« Reply #11 on: Jan 11th, 2020, 10:13pm »
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Quite often sysex strings are stored in code.
I would do a grep with the header of the returned Denon sysex.
 
0xF0, 0x00, 0x02, 0x0B, 0x7F, 0x01, 0x60, 0x00, 0x04, 0x04, 0x01, 0x00, 0x00, 0xF7
If you follow other makers sysex it is likely to be  
0xF0 start sysex
0x00, 0x02, 0x0B Denon Id  (that is a '0b' not 8at the end -confirmed in Midi.org)  
0x7F device ID - 7F is usually any device
0x01, 0x60, 0x00, 0x04, 0x04, 0x01, 0x00, 0x00, Model + command+??
0xF7
 
It could be stored in the file as an ASCII string or binary (you might need to adjust for wide string format)
I use the free BearGrep for a Windows grep https://www.baremetalsoft.com/baregrep/
Select "Regex Syntax" and "Ignore case" (for text searches)
So for all files *.* grep using the text  
0xF0 0x00 0x02 0x0B  
and  then
F0 00 02 0B  
and then binary  
\xF0\x00\x02\x0B
 
NOTE: No quotes.  
 
First do it in the App's program directory then the Windows directory (it could be in a DLL)
 
Let me know how you get on.
Royce
« Last Edit: Jan 12th, 2020, 12:46am by Breath » IP Logged
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Re: get SysEx message from software to MIDI device
« Reply #12 on: Jan 12th, 2020, 5:21pm »
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awesome that you are infected to solve this as well Wink Will try your suggestions to find the MC7000 string during the next days...
 
BTW: I can confirm your SysEx guess as for the MC4000 it is known to be:
0xF0, 0x00, 0x02, 0x0B, 0x7F, 0x01, 0x60, 0x00, 0x04, 0x04, 0x01, 0x00, 0x00, 0xF7
« Last Edit: Jan 12th, 2020, 5:26pm by osz » IP Logged
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Re: get SysEx message from software to MIDI device
« Reply #13 on: Jan 13th, 2020, 6:36am »
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going a little step forward... Your suggested search did not reply any useful result. I am now using wireshark on the main Linux OS to get all the USB traffic from Win10 in Virtualbox to the USB device.
 
With that I could find all data for the MC4000, so a known device information could be reproduced. I have attached a picture to explain what I did:
 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9k4sisq1a1viaw8/SysEx1.png?dl=0
 
The USB dump is taken while the MC4000 was connected and while the App was started and closed. Searching for the HEX string "F0 00 02 0B" for Denon did not give any useful result. I do not remember where I saw that before but added the "04" before that "0B" and suddenly I have found a USB package where the protocol said it was SYSEX and the Info was "MIDI System Exclusive Command" - see left side of picture.
 
The deeper look into that package showed me a full set of bytes but switching over to the "Reassembled Message" Tab exactly gave me what the known string is to ask the MC4000 for it's status - see middle part of the picture.
 
Then I tested using MIDI Ox  and yes - the answer was promptly coming. Cheers!
 
 
So far so good - for the MC7000 which I wanna really know this was not so easy as there are no packages that have protocol "SYSEX" or any Info stating "MIDI". The data were captured same way as for the MC4000, MIDI OX and Wireshark running while the APp was opened and closed.  
 
Second picture shows the MC7000 related stuff:
 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rvyt72jhbp8yeuf/SysEx2.png?dl=0
 
MIDI OX found the answers of the MC7000 as you can see on the picture right hand side. I was wondering that within the answer there are SysEx messages coming so I searched for the sysex in the USB dump finding some results as you can see on the left hand side, details of the packages in the middle.  
 
"f0 00 20 04 7f" is the App manufacturer code. There was no result searching for the Denon MIDI code
 
I could not find the SysEx message for the question from the App to the controller. But I know there must be a question or a signal so that the controller knows it must send it's status.
 
Your next idea is very welcome Wink
 
CHeers! OsZ
 
One more point:
For the MC7000 Input on MIDI OX the first 26 Bytes SysEx always looks different while the second 10 Bytes message is always the same:  
F0 00 20 7F 19 00 00 03 00 F7
 
When trying to send this as SysEx with MIDI OX there is no answer from the device.
« Last Edit: Jan 13th, 2020, 8:32am by osz » IP Logged
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Re: get SysEx message from software to MIDI device
« Reply #14 on: Jan 13th, 2020, 10:29am »
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Royce (Breath) has been doing a wonderful job of handling this thread, but I have a couple of comments on your latest post.
 
* The manufacturer ID of Denon is: "00H 02H 0BH"
* The ID: "00H 20H 04H" is owned by "Böhm electronic GmbH"
reference: https://www.midi.org/specifications/item/manufacturer-id-numbers
* You should only search for the SysEx begin character "F0" (or "f0") and the manufacturers ID.  Example: F0 00 02 0B ("F0H 00H 02H 0BH").  Because this is what determines the ID of the sender or recipient of the message.
*  In your pictures, you do not have the Denon In port connected to the Out port.  I recommend you do connect them.
« Last Edit: Jan 13th, 2020, 10:45am by Jamie OConnell » IP Logged

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Re: get SysEx message from software to MIDI device
« Reply #15 on: Jan 13th, 2020, 9:12pm »
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Hi osz
 
Wow, you have actually got the boss into action. Glad to hear you are getting better Jamie.
Jamie is right about closing the communication loop.
 
From the MMA (midi.org) https://www.midi.org/specifications-old/item/manufacturer-id-numbers
"00H 20H 7FH  Serato Inc LP    suspended" (haven't renewed Manufacturer Id)
Is the App developer not the hardware and that is why you are not getting any answer.  
 
Your successful  change from 00H 02H 0BH to 00H 02H 04H ...
"00H 02H 04H  Synclavier Digital  relinquished"  so not helpful unless your Synclavier is connected and on
 
The Serato one I get but the Synclavier seems very weird. Is Serato stealing a whole lot of retired ManufIds?
 
The manufacturer Id uses 00 to extend the Ids from the original (early) single number  Ids and is always three bytes.
ERROR: Not true. I was thinking of 7D. From Somascape Midi Guide...
"3 System Exclusive ID numbers have been set aside for special purposes : 7D is reserved for non-commercial use (e.g. schools, research, etc.) and is not to be used on any product released to the public; 7E (Non Real Time) and 7F (Real Time) are used for extensions to the MIDI specification, and are known as Universal System Exclusive ID numbers."
 
As Jamie spotted "00H 20H 04H  Böhm electronic GmbH"
From your pics your numbers are correct.
 
ManfId 00 started out as a 'testing' id and so it could be used like that.
The Bohm ManufId status is unknown so perhaps Serato is just using it to hide its sysex.
If that is true, it seems a bit 'cloak and dagger' even for DJs
 
 
You can see what the MC7000 puts out when requested by the App. What is the first 16 bytes of the reply?
"F0 00 02 0B DeviceId Model_Id SysexCommand" is the most common format.
Usually the Model Id is 1 or 3 bytes like the Manuf Id (but the manufacturer is free to use whatever they want)
Have you tried to to substitute the MC 7000 returned Model Id in what you know is the App's MC4000 request and send it to the MC7000 via MidiOx?
Perhaps they have kept the commands the same between models.
 
Royce
« Last Edit: Jan 15th, 2020, 8:32pm by Breath » IP Logged
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Re: get SysEx message from software to MIDI device
« Reply #16 on: Jan 14th, 2020, 4:00am »
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Thank you both for the hints. But please do not mix up the MIDI dump vs USB dump. I have marked the first picture again where I found the MC4000 specs.
 
Analyzing the USB frame 24689 looks like following (see additional green marks) ...
 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gfnko4xub03g13x/SysEx3.png?dl=0
 
1) the complete USB frame got 84 bytes
2) USB Audio contains 5 USB Midi Event Packets that are detailed in line 40 and 50  
3) each Midi Packet starts or continues with a 0x4 message followed by 3 midi bytes
4) the last 3 Midi bytes are identified with a 0x6 instead

So each 4th "04" byte within the USB stream is just identifying the next block of 3 Midi bytes and does not belong to the Midi message itself.

 
The point is I did not find any similar for the MC7000 so I guess it is hidden somewhere not declared as Midi event but the controller must still understand it.
 
And yes - I tried so many different variants already in order to get a response from the MC7000.
 
It is possible that Denon and SErato partnered so close that they are going for a Serato message instead of a Denon to trigger the status reply by the device.  
« Last Edit: Jan 14th, 2020, 6:19am by osz » IP Logged
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Re: get SysEx message from software to MIDI device
« Reply #17 on: Jan 14th, 2020, 6:10am »
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Grin Finally I have solved the topic for the MC7000 too Grin
 
For your convenience I made another screen print here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p2aeh3p6enoavz1/SysEx4.png?dl=0
 
I was looking for the Serato string "f0 00 20 04 7f" and found there are lots of "Leftover Capture Data" within the USB dump. Searching and getting all of them listed I applied the logic to delete each 4th byte that possibly just define the next Midi Packet (see post before) and so I came up with a few possible SysEx messages, tried them with MIDI-OX and got the reply I was looking for.
 
So !!! THANK YOU !!! for your great help and direction even outside of the MIDI-OX software. I have learned a lot about USB and Midi signals with that exercise.
 
This thread can be marked as "solved"  
 
PS: I gonna delete the Dropbox folder soon so if you like to keep some records you should download the pictures.
 
PPS: Sorry to state here - but anyhow if you like to listen to House or Techno mixes check my profile on Mixcloud.
 
Cheers!
OsZ
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Re: get SysEx message from software to MIDI device
« Reply #18 on: Jan 14th, 2020, 4:37pm »
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Congratulations!  I'm glad you've found an answer.
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Re: get SysEx message from software to MIDI device
« Reply #19 on: Jan 15th, 2020, 8:21pm »
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Glad to hear you got it going with the  
F0 00 20 7F 03 01 F7
request
 
So Serato's id 00 20 7F leaves 30 01 and is something special between Serato and Denon for the MC7000.
 
Good sleuthing.
 
All the best
Royce
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